Bilefsky about Doukhobors on CBC Radio One
Corrected Interview with Dan Bilefsky by Alya
Ramadan on "Daybreak South with Chris Walker"
CBC Radio One, Kelowna BC, June 6, 2023.
New York Times journalist explains how Russia-Ukraine war adds
complexity into Doukhobor community
CBC Radio (6:29 minutes)
Montreal-based New York Times reporter Dan Bilefsky speaks to guest
host Alya Ramadan on what he learned from his coverage of the
Russian-speaking community in B.C.'s Kootenays.
Daybreak South with Chris Walker
Daybreak South is CBC Radio One's current affairs morning show
covering the Southern Interior of British Columbia, based in
Kelowna. We bring listeners the latest news, weather and road
information.
See Bilefsky's corrected article: A
Pacifist Sect From Russia Is Shaken by War, and Modern Life/
Modernity
CBC LISTEN : On Demand
Transcript — Corrections
in Red with links, by Andrei Conovaloff
Alya Ramadan: The Doukhobors
have a fascinating history in the West Kootenay. In the late
1800s, thousands of Doukhobors left Russia because of religious
persecution. Now, they made their way to Canada and many of them
settled in BC Southern Interior.
For more than 100 years Doukhobors have enriched places like
Castlegar and Grand Forks with their spiritual and cultural
practices. But the war in Ukraine has added a layer of complexity
to that cultural identity, and that’s the focus of an article
recently published in the New York Times.
A
Pacifist Sect From Russia Is Shaken by War, and Modern Life/
Modernity
Dan Bilefsky is a reporter behind the story. He traveled to
Castlegar in the spring and Dan joins me now from Montreal.
Good morning, Dan.
Dan Bilefsky: Good morning.
Thanks for joining us. So, people here in our area are somewhat
familiar with the Doukhobor Community in the southern interior.
But can you give us a brief sense of who the Doukhobors are?
Absolutely. So, the Doukhobors are this fascinating Russian
religious sect, which have a very strong pacifist ideology, and
broke with the Russian Orthodox Church in the 17th
18th century, resisted serving in the Imperial Army
under the czars, as a result they
the most zealous third burned all of
their weapons in the late 19th century [1895] which led to their
violence, eviction and exile, and there was a massive migration that began to Canada around that time, in
1899.
Hmmm… Now, you became familiar obviously with the Doukhobors, but
what drew you to the story in the first place?
I heard, I mean, I think it's quite fascinating that this
extraordinary Russian sect exists in Canada, but I don't think it's
much known about outside of British Columbia in
the past 50 years. I think the thing that initially
intrigued* me about the Doukhobors, as
I heard about this the
radical Sons of Freedom faction
who defamed Doukhobors within
the community that historically would have nude protests
in which they would burn things down mostly
in the 1920s up until the 1980s. But in general, I was interested in
the fact that it was a group with Russian origins who lived in
Canada, and I was curious about how they were being affected by the
war in Ukraine, given the Russian origins.
* Bilefsky was drawn, “initially
intrigued” by nudity and arson 50 to 100 years ago, as shown in
his lede sentence in
his article, not pacifism, Ukraine or Russian-Canadians.
And then, what did you learn? What did they tell you?
Well, what I learned is that this is a fascinating group, you know,
much like the Mennonites leading aesthetic lifestyles. Historically
vegan, non-drinking alcohol, who've been clinging to Russian
traditions going back decades, eating Russian dishes, bathing in
Russian saunas, and speaking Russian among themselves. But because
pacifism is at the core of who they are, obviously the war in
Ukraine and Russia as aggression is causing deep soul-searching* within a community that have Russian
roots, and who themselves fled the persecution in Russia.
* “soul-searching" is not
mentioned in the New York Times article body, only in
the misleading
sub-header.
And so what were some of the things that you heard from the
people you spoke to when it came to within the community, and what
was happening between people as this war is raging on?
Well, I think it's causing some discussion. I think everyone I met
were unanimous in opposing the war, obviously because pacifism is so
important in the culture. Also, John Verigin, the Executive
Director of the USCC Doukhobors leader
of the community, mentioned to me that some Doukhobors
experience some discrimination due to their Russian origins. And, I
think most importantly, historically the Doukhobors had part of
their system of beliefs was a desire to return to Russia among many
in the community. And now, I think after so many years in Canada and
also because of the retroism in Mother Russia, the desire to go back
to Russia has basically dissipated and most people I spoke to talk
very strongly about the fact of their Canadian identity and how
important that was to them.
Why do you think it was an important story to share to an
international audience?
I think it was very interesting for an international audience
because it has global resonance. Because this is a group with
origins in Russia and the biggest geopolitical story of the moment
is the war in Ukraine. So, how Russia minorities is being affected
was instantly interesting to me. And, I think more than even that,
is just the fascinating glimpse into this extraordinary,
peace-loving community in Canada that the vast majority of people
haven't heard about, and who have enriched Canada and the world
beyond with their pacifism, with their religion, with their music. I
just think it's a kind of a fascinating glimpse of a world most
people aren't aware of.
And, I mean, in the article, you talk about some of, you know,
obviously the cultural identity and the relationship, too, to
Mother Russia in the context of the war, but also around their own
cultural identity within their own community, and how it's
shifting between generations. Can you tell us a bit about that?
Absolutely. So, you know, this was a group that began to emigrated en mass* to Canada in 1899, spoke Russian among
themselves. You know, ate Russian dishes like pel’meni.* But, you know, decades later, the younger
generation of Doukhobors are obviously drawn to city life. Tolstoy
famously helped fund the immigration of Doukhobors to Canada, and I
say in my story, today's younger generation are more drawn to TicTok
than to Tolstoy. So, I think the Doukhobors are grappling with the
desire to cleave to their traditional way of life, to the Russian
language. But, at the same time, as the West continues, obviously,
you know, the Canadian culture, popular culture, intervenes in
everyday life.
* By 1930 about 8,300 Doukhobors — one-third
— moved to Canada.
** Probably vareniki, which are meat-less Russian
"dumplings". USCC
Doukhboors cook vareniki which Bilefsky, who may
be of Jewish and/or Ukrainian background, may have mistook for pel'meni.
Today's Doukhobors are doctors, lawyers, sports heroes. And so, I
think the big challenge facing the community is how to continue in
the future, and hold on to the identity with these forces of
integration being so strong.
And, of course, you spent time in the West Kootenay around
Castlegar, and the surrounding area, of course you would have had
an opportunity to taste some local cuisine. What can you tell us
about what you loved?
Absolutely. Well, I mean, one thing I just found so uplifting about
the Doukhobor community is everyone was so welcoming, and it was a
real sense of communitarianism; and, I was invited to so many homes
for Russian dishes, like pel’meli*
and borshch,
which of course has Ukrainian origins, as well. But, it was a big,
it's such a big part of the culture as eating and also they're
brilliant at raising vegetables, and also brilliant at music and
singing. So, I think between all the great meals I had, the
pacifism, the uplifting singing, it was a very, very positive
uplifting experience for me, in an area that I knew very little
about before, being from Montreal.
* Probably vareniki, which
are meat-less Russian "dumplings". USCC
Doukhboors cook vareniki which Bilefsky, who may
be of Jewish and/or Ukrainian background, may have mistook for pel'meni.
Dan, it's good of you to share this experience with us. Thank you
so much for speaking with us today
Thank you so much.
Take care. Bye-bye.
Be well.
Dan Bilefsky is a reporter with the New York Times and we reached
him this morning in Montreal.