Bilefsky about Doukhobors on CBC Radio One

Corrected Interview with Dan Bilefsky by Alya Ramadan on "Daybreak South with Chris Walker"
CBC Radio One, Kelowna BC, June 6, 2023.


New York Times journalist explains how Russia-Ukraine war adds complexity into Doukhobor community
CBC Radio (6:29 minutes)
Montreal-based New York Times reporter Dan Bilefsky speaks to guest host Alya Ramadan on what he learned from his coverage of the Russian-speaking community in B.C.'s Kootenays.

Daybreak South with Chris Walker
Daybreak South is CBC Radio One's current affairs morning show covering the Southern Interior of British Columbia, based in Kelowna. We bring listeners the latest news, weather and road information.

See Bilefsky's corrected article: A Pacifist Sect From Russia Is Shaken by War, and Modern Life/ Modernity

CBC LISTEN : On Demand
Transcript Corrections in Red with links, by Andrei Conovaloff

Alya Ramadan: The Doukhobors have a fascinating history in the West Kootenay. In the late 1800s, thousands of Doukhobors left Russia because of religious persecution. Now, they made their way to Canada and many of them settled in BC Southern Interior.

For more than 100 years Doukhobors have enriched places like Castlegar and Grand Forks with their spiritual and cultural practices. But the war in Ukraine has added a layer of complexity to that cultural identity, and that’s the focus of an article recently published in the New York Times.
A Pacifist Sect From Russia Is Shaken by War, and Modern Life/ Modernity

Dan Bilefsky is a reporter behind the story. He traveled to Castlegar in the spring and Dan joins me now from Montreal.

Good morning, Dan.
Dan Bilefsky: Good morning.

Thanks for joining us. So, people here in our area are somewhat familiar with the Doukhobor Community in the southern interior. But can you give us a brief sense of who the Doukhobors are?
Absolutely. So, the Doukhobors are this fascinating Russian religious sect, which have a very strong pacifist ideology, and broke with the Russian Orthodox Church in the 17th 18th century, resisted serving in the Imperial Army under the czars, as a result they the most zealous third burned all of their weapons in the late 19th century [1895] which led to their violence, eviction and exile, and there was a massive migration that began to Canada around that time, in 1899.

Hmmm… Now, you became familiar obviously with the Doukhobors, but what drew you to the story in the first place?
I heard, I mean, I think it's quite fascinating that this extraordinary Russian sect exists in Canada, but I don't think it's much known about outside of British Columbia in the past 50 years. I think the thing that initially intrigued* me about the Doukhobors, as I heard about this the radical Sons of Freedom faction who defamed Doukhobors within the community that historically would have nude protests in which they would burn things down mostly in the 1920s up until the 1980s. But in general, I was interested in the fact that it was a group with Russian origins who lived in Canada, and I was curious about how they were being affected by the war in Ukraine, given the Russian origins.
* Bilefsky was drawn, “initially intrigued” by nudity and arson 50 to 100 years ago, as shown in his lede sentence in his article, not pacifism, Ukraine or Russian-Canadians.
And then, what did you learn? What did they tell you?
Well, what I learned is that this is a fascinating group, you know, much like the Mennonites leading aesthetic lifestyles. Historically vegan, non-drinking alcohol, who've been clinging to Russian traditions going back decades, eating Russian dishes, bathing in Russian saunas, and speaking Russian among themselves. But because pacifism is at the core of who they are, obviously the war in Ukraine and Russia as aggression is causing deep soul-searching* within a community that have Russian roots, and who  themselves fled the persecution in Russia.
*  “soul-searching" is not mentioned in the New York Times article body, only in the misleading sub-header.
And so what were some of the things that you heard from the people you spoke to when it came to within the community, and what was happening between people as this war is raging on?
Well, I think it's causing some discussion. I think everyone I met were unanimous in opposing the war, obviously because pacifism is so important in the culture. Also, John Verigin, the Executive Director of the USCC Doukhobors leader of the community, mentioned to me that some Doukhobors experience some discrimination due to their Russian origins. And, I think most importantly, historically the Doukhobors had part of their system of beliefs was a desire to return to Russia among many in the community. And now, I think after so many years in Canada and also because of the retroism in Mother Russia, the desire to go back to Russia has basically dissipated and most people I spoke to talk very strongly about the fact of their Canadian identity and how important that was to them.

Why do you think it was an important story to share to an international audience?
I think it was very interesting for an international audience because it has global resonance. Because this is a group with origins in Russia and the biggest geopolitical story of the moment is the war in Ukraine. So, how Russia minorities is being affected was instantly interesting to me. And, I think more than even that, is just the fascinating glimpse into this extraordinary, peace-loving community in Canada that the vast majority of people haven't heard about, and who have enriched Canada and the world beyond with their pacifism, with their religion, with their music. I just think it's a kind of a fascinating glimpse of a world most people aren't aware of.  

And, I mean, in the article, you talk about some of, you know, obviously the cultural identity and the relationship, too, to Mother Russia in the context of the war, but also around their own cultural identity within their own community, and how it's shifting between generations. Can you tell us a bit about that?
Absolutely. So, you know, this was a group that began to emigrated en mass* to Canada in 1899, spoke Russian among themselves. You know, ate Russian dishes like pel’meni.* But, you know, decades later, the younger generation of Doukhobors are obviously drawn to city life. Tolstoy famously helped fund the immigration of Doukhobors to Canada, and I say in my story, today's younger generation are more drawn to TicTok than to Tolstoy. So, I think the Doukhobors are grappling with the desire to cleave to their traditional way of life, to the Russian language. But, at the same time, as the West continues, obviously, you know, the Canadian culture, popular culture, intervenes in everyday life.
 *  By 1930 about 8,300 Doukhobors — one-third — moved to Canada.
**  Probably vareniki, which are meat-less Russian "dumplings". USCC Doukhboors cook vareniki which Bilefsky, who may be of Jewish and/or Ukrainian background, may have mistook for pel'meni.
Today's Doukhobors are doctors, lawyers, sports heroes. And so, I think the big challenge facing the community is how to continue in the future, and hold on to the identity with these forces of integration being so strong.

And, of course, you spent time in the West Kootenay around Castlegar, and the surrounding area, of course you would have had an opportunity to taste some local cuisine. What can you tell us about what you loved?
Absolutely. Well, I mean, one thing I just found so uplifting about the Doukhobor community is everyone was so welcoming, and it was a real sense of communitarianism; and, I was invited to so many homes for Russian dishes, like pel’meli* and borshch, which of course has Ukrainian origins, as well. But, it was a big, it's such a big part of the culture as eating and also they're brilliant at raising vegetables, and also brilliant at music and singing. So, I think between all the great meals I had, the pacifism, the uplifting singing, it was a very, very positive uplifting experience for me, in an area that I knew very little about before, being from Montreal.
* Probably vareniki, which are meat-less Russian "dumplings". USCC Doukhboors cook vareniki which Bilefsky, who may be of Jewish and/or Ukrainian background, may have mistook for pel'meni.
Dan, it's good of you to share this experience with us. Thank you so much for speaking with us today
Thank you so much.

Take care. Bye-bye.
Be well.

Dan Bilefsky is a reporter with the New York Times and we reached him this morning in Montreal.

A Pacifist Sect From Russia Is Shaken by War, and Modern Life/ Modernity,
by Dan Bilefsky, New York Times, 6 June 2023

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